Author Topic: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)  (Read 639 times)

Atash Hagmahani

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Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« on: August 28, 2010, 02:44:55 AM »
I went to a cereal field day with Tom Wagner.

Triticale is a stabilized and rather complicated hybrid between wheat and rye. I think the original idea was to breed a cereal that had the protein content of wheat, and was easy-to-grow and tolerant of adverse conditions like rye. Triticale is not only high in protein, but it is more complete protein than the protein in wheat, having more lysine. Triticale rivals high-lysine corn for lysine content, but without the GMO controversy and regulations, and having significantly more protein in total.

There was some discussion about the gluten in Triticale. In fact I think I overheard Tom asking if Tritcale had been bred with hard or soft wheat.

The speaker said no, Triticale is only ever bred with Triticale. It won't cross back to wheat or rye. Wrong chromosome count. The answer to the question, though, was that it was bred using hard red wheat.

Someone else asked about making bread with it, and the speaker said no, you can't make bread with it, unless you use mostly wheat flour and add "just a tiny proportion" of Triticale, "because Triticale doesn't have any gluten".

That didn't sound right to me, because both parents contain gluten. The whole complex does, which is why it's not a great idea to give celiacs Rye, Spelt, Kamut, or Triticale. Besides, Triticale is famous for its protein content, and if most of the protein is not gluten, what is it?

I looked it up, and got conflicting information. The information that looks more accurate, having the scientific studies and breakdown, says it does contain gluten, and in proportions rivaling hard red wheat.

The problem is something's wrong with it. Maybe the 2 component proteins are not in the right ratio, or maybe something is specifically wrong with the glutenin. In any case, it is not as strong and elastic as wheat gluten.

But I'm not one to give up that easily. I did more digging, and found that there is significant interest in using it for bread in Eastern Europe, especially at higher latitudes where wheat won't grow at all, or grows poorly.

For those who don't know, the USA doesn't grow much Triticale. There's a little grown in the inland northwest. I would not be surprised if acreage has actually dropped, due to declining interest in this grain. You used to be able to buy it in markets here along with whole wheat flour and whole rye, and it used to be fairly common as a rolled grain similar to oats. Not anymore. I was surprised when I went out and could not find it. It is listed as a very minor ingredient in 10-grain porridges. In some parts of the country, you can find it rolled and clinging to the crust of a loaf of bread--but that is a very small amount.

BTW, I did notice the trend with porridges a long time ago: in Seattle it is challenging to buy any porridge that does not contain oats (or sugar). The very few exceptions--only 1 or 2 anymore, and getting hard to find, are wheat farinas and corn grits. I'm in the market for a grain mill, and one of the things I might do with it is grind my own non-oat, non-wheat porridge. I am more sensitive to avenin than I am to gluten!

Mostly, domestic Triticale is probably ending up as chicken-feed. :(

It seems weird that Triticale is so unavailable in a city at the end of a huge grain export system feeding in by rail from the bread basket states, with gigantic grain mills at the port. But it is still available mail-order from places like Bob's Red Mill. I'll have to order some to continue with my experiments.

Bob's Red Mill has a recipe for 100% Triticale bread.

http://www.bobsredmill.com/triticale-flour.html

It uses, as I expected, a short kneed time and a single rise. A longer, more vigorous kneed would break the delicate gluten strands, as would the "punching down" of a 2-rise recipe.

But I suspect I can improve it with some tricks I know. That's why I want to experiment. It would also be worthwhile to figure out what else to do with it.
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opsec

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2010, 02:53:13 AM »
I think you can find this by the 50lb. bag at feed supply places. I bought one way back in '99. It was cheap, $7.00 I think. It's primary use is animal feed.
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Lady Lilya

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2010, 12:44:02 PM »
My gluten-free friends cannot have triticale (or rye or spelt or kamut, or of course wheat). 

I have heard great things about the Family Grain Mill.  I was considering getting it.  It can be hand-cranked or you can get the motor.  Everyone said the hand crank is amazingly easy, compared to other hand-crank mills.  It also can do grains you have soaked (to eliminate the anti-nutrients, phytic acid, enzyme inhibitors) or sprouted.  And with different blades you can make either almond flour or almond butter. 

I've used triticale before. 
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opsec

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2010, 01:14:32 PM »
I went with the Country Living grain mill and a bunch of spare parts and an extra set of plates. It got good reviews. It to can be motorized if you want. You need to buy your own motor and an appropriately sized fan belt, but it's doable.
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"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2010, 02:40:00 PM »
I don't know which one I want. I like the fact that the Family Grain Mill is reputedly easy to crank, despite its modest size. Something about precision German engineering. But the body is plastic!

The Country Living has a cast aluminum body and is supposed to be pretty rugged.

I know I don't want a compact electric mill that uses blades; they're supposed to be really fast and compact, and to grind finely, but the blades get bent and the grind is not adjustable so you can't make porridge or chicken feed. Plus my experience with motorized appliances is that they tend to be short-lived.

Does anybody know what the limits are on what you can grind? I have a need for finely-ground brown rice flour. Brown rice is a hard grain and is hard to grind finely. If you don't grind it finely, the end product can be unpleasantly "sandy" textured.

I also want to be able to grind chickpeas, which are usually about the biggest bean most mills can handle, if they can handle it. Chickpeas are big and they're hard. BUT I've discovered that chickpea flour is surprisingly useful. Chickpeas are cool-growing like dry peas ("soup peas") and fava beans, but they are higher in protein and perhaps a bit more versatile.

Some popular non-gluten flour mixes are brown rice and chickpea, and sorghum and chickpea.

Some mills can't handle sorghum (also known as "milo"). Too gummy I think. Sorghum, like rice, has only a modest amount of protein, but it has a mild taste and is easier to grow than rice or for that matter corn (which it superficially resembles, being a robust, broad-leaved grass). Relatively few people eat it anymore, but it makes pretty decent porridge for breakfast. Tom Wagner has a pancake mix that is sorghum and something else, I don't remember the other ingredient. It would be good to make sure the mill I buy can handle sorghum, because I'll probably be growing some.

Corn should be no problem; I would guess most mills can handle that, and especially dent corn. I wonder if I could make my own Polenta from flint corn? The trick would be to get the grind highly uniform.
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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2010, 02:43:07 PM »
I think you can find this by the 50lb. bag at feed supply places. I bought one way back in '99. It was cheap, $7.00 I think. It's primary use is animal feed.

I wonder if there is anything wrong with it that precludes its use for humans. Yeah, they feed it to chickens. It's got a better protein balance than wheat, and higher protein content than the soft white wheat they sometimes feed chickens (not mine; they don't like it).

Anyway, in theory it should be cheaper than wheat, were it more readily available. We might have a home-grown supply in a few years.
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silverseeds

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 04:41:35 PM »
Atash.... I still have yet to get that ryes together for you.... If you like I have a few varieties of triticale you can grow as well. Let me know if you want them....

opsec

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2010, 06:01:37 PM »
Quote
Does anybody know what the limits are on what you can grind? I have a need for finely-ground brown rice flour. Brown rice is a hard grain and is hard to grind finely. If you don't grind it finely, the end product can be unpleasantly "sandy" textured.

I also want to be able to grind chickpeas, which are usually about the biggest bean most mills can handle, if they can handle it. Chickpeas are big and they're hard. BUT I've discovered that chickpea flour is surprisingly useful. Chickpeas are cool-growing like dry peas ("soup peas") and fava beans, but they are higher in protein and perhaps a bit more versatile.


As a paying customer, the customer service rep at Country Living Grain Mill was eager to help me out with this. I called and asked if their mill can handle chickpeas (aka garbanzos), and he said he didn't know, but he is going to do an experiment for me tonight and he will call me back with the results. I'll post the results here. I'll ask about how fine one can grind brown rice when he calls back.
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

"Truth is hate to those that hate truth".

Lady Lilya

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2010, 06:03:18 PM »
Atash, I sent a message to my friend in Alaska who I clearly remember has the Family Grain Mill.  I'll let you know what she says.
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Lady Lilya

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2010, 06:33:05 PM »
Quote
It's [the brown rice] still a little grainy. Chickpeas won't work, it's right in the warranty. Sorghum is no problem. Love the versatility of the mill and its attachments.
If someone says something unkind about me, I must live so that nobody will believe it.

opsec

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 07:58:15 PM »
I just got the word back from Country Living Grain Mill. The chickpeas can be ground with using the bean auger attachment, however it can only achieve a very coarse grind and so they don't recommend it. I'll have to call back Monday to find out about brown rice.
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

"Truth is hate to those that hate truth".

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 12:00:19 PM »
Atash.... I still have yet to get that ryes together for you.... If you like I have a few varieties of triticale you can grow as well. Let me know if you want them....

Thanks, Bud. I'm game to try a variety of things because we don't know exactly what will work. Rye is adaptable and should be fairly easy.

It's not cold enough here to winter-kill rye or triticale, and we have a long (~260 days) but cool growing season. I think spring varieties can be planted fall or spring but winter varieties must be planted fall or they won't tiller enough. The nice thing about fall planting is that once a grain is established here over the winter, it's big enough and has a deep enough root system that I don't need to irrigate, which I don't have the equipment. Fall planting season is September through October.
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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 12:03:51 PM »
Thanks for checking, Opsec and Lilya.

Because Indians grind gram (not to be confused with "graham") flour out of chickpeas, Indian milling supply merchants tend to have a variety of mills that can handle chickpeas. Question is one of quality and longevity, since I probably won't be able to find parts. I could buy a few spare parts up-front.

I might actually spring for multiple mills, with the idea that maybe one mill can't do everything I want it to do.
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Lady Lilya

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Re: Poor man's wheat (Triticale)
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 04:37:12 PM »
Well, what if you soaked the chick peas first?  Then I don't see why the Family Grain Mill couldn't do it.  It does moist things.  If they are too big, once you soak them you could smash them a bit.
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