Author Topic: This young man is in trouble  (Read 982 times)

Atash Hagmahani

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This young man is in trouble
« on: October 18, 2008, 06:21:46 PM »
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/383729_shooting17.html

He went to jail for quite a while, without charges. Not much information to go by, but I would bet it played out like this:

He confronted the thieves with a gun. This is technically legal, but a legally dangerous situation.
They ran.
One of them stopped for some reason, panicking him.

I have yet to hear where the bullet entered (front of head or back of head...).

It sounds like after the shooting someone called police, who probably came at the shooter with drawn guns. He dropped his gun and was reported to have said "I didn't mean to kill him".

At this point the shooting is highly politicized for reasons that should be obvious.
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opsec

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 08:15:03 PM »
   Engrave the following statement onto your brain, have it tattooed onto the back of your eyelids so you see it every time you blink, this is gun gospel: If you ever shoot somebody, there is one thing and one thing only that you will say to the police when they show up. It is: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Example:

   Officer: "It's obvious that you were acting in self defense, just tell me how it happened so I can fill out the report."
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "I need to get a statement from everybody including you, so tell me what happened."
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "Look, you have enough legal trouble as it is, now quit fucking with me and tell me what happened!"  (accompanied by emphatic gestures intended to establish domination over you)
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "Hey dumbass, if you don't tell the police what happened, the jury will see that as an admission of guilt and the judge is going to give you the maximum sentence."
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "Ok, but don't say I didn't warn you."
   You: (exercising your right to remain silent) Contrary to what the police will tell you, you do not need to be under arrest in order to exercise your right to remain silent, and if they get mad and hit you, that's the same thing as winning the lottery. If that happens, remain silent, smile glibly, and just let them see the dollar signs in your eyes.

You will be a broken record until your lawyer is present with you in the interrogation room.


Second item: You must be among the first people to call the police. If you don't summon the police, juries see that as an attempt by you to conceal your activity. That leads them in the wrong direction even if all the facts of the case are in your favor. All you tell the 911 operator is that there has been a shooting and you need the police and an ambulance at your address.

Third item: Don't do any kind of after action clean up to make yourself look even more innocent than you already are. The popular urban myth that you should drag the body back inside your house is wrong. Any attempt by you to change the scene will automatically incriminate you in the eyes of the law (prosecutor: "If you're innocent, then why did you drag the body back inside your house?", "Did you plant the [insert weapon here] in his dead hand too?") so don't give the prosecutor any ammunition to use against you in court.

Do the research now and find an attorney(s), and have the list in a place that your spouse, trusted friend, or somebody you can count on, can find it and start calling around for you after you call them. That's what the one phone call is for. You don't call the lawyer and leave a message on his answering machine for him to listen to after he gets back from his Carribean cruise. Call the spouse/friend and set them into motion on your behalf. You can then relax in your holding cell instead of stressing out, wondering what you are going to do, or what the judge is going to do to you.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 08:25:29 PM by opsec »
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 09:22:07 PM »
GOOD POST BUD.

This would be worth training ourselves for NOW, because you never know when something is going to go wrong .
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Malone Laveigh

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2008, 10:25:23 AM »
Outstanding post Opsec!!!   :eatdrink004:

100% complete agreement with you. 



Malone
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opsec

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2008, 11:56:26 AM »
Malone,
    Check out the thread "Don't talk to the police..." too.
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

"Truth is hate to those that hate truth".

Malone Laveigh

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2008, 10:15:01 PM »
Malone,
    Check out the thread "Don't talk to the police..." too.

Unfortunately I can't, I'm in the middle of nowhere with a dial-up connection, videos can take hours to download for me to see only a few minutes.   'Tis the price of living in BFE.   :laughing002:

However, I've known for quite some time about dealing with LEO's.  Rarely have I found that law and justice coincide, even by accident.   :laughing002: 


Malone
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." - Dresden James

"Don't believe them, don't fear them, don't ask anything of them." - Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Publius

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 02:57:01 PM »
I'm with Opsec. Unfortunatly this State is one who doesn't like gun owners much. This just happened in Nashville http://www.wsmv.com/news/17588458/detail.html#- So far no problems for home owner. The BIG thing here is what should eventually said to the Police. "The guy turned around and was reaching for his waistband, I thought he was reaching for a gun and I shot him." The "I aimed for the legs" was BAD too. You don't shoot to wound. You shoot to stop. Center mass aim point. Stop someone from using deadly force against you or the defense of others for most civilians. There are other things that cops or federal officers can shoot you for.

Deadly force is defined as the force in which a person uses causing, or that a person knows or should know would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm.

This is the landmark case that defined it for COPS. In the United States this is governed by Tennessee v. Garner, which said that "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

Guns are NOT the only deadly force weapons. Knives, baseball bats, crowbars or anything that would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm. But there is litmus test for these, including a gun. The test is. Ability, Opportunity, Imminent Jeopardy and Preclusion.

Ability: do they have the ability to cause, death or serious bodily harm.

Opportunity: Are they close enough to use weapon, or in the case of a large person assaulting a small person. Obviously you don't shoot someone who has a knife that is greater than about 20 feet away, or there is an object between you. BTW if you have your gun holstered and they are 21 feet or less, they can get to you BEFORE you can draw your weapon, GUARANTEED. So draw response is 21 feet or so, draw it. Bring out and show it. You don't have to shoot if you draw it.

Imminent Jeopardy: Do you believe that you are facing, death or serious bodily harm. I can't just shoot you even if you are standing in front of me with a gun. Is the person mad, or threatening you. It must meet reasonable belief. What would most reasonable people believe if put in the same situation.

Some states don't require this one.
Preclusion: To make impossible, as by action taken in advance; prevent. Basically the requirement is to escape from the situation or warn them away. If someone comes into your house, and you say  "I have a gun, leave!" and they don't, but by fleeing you leave your wife and kids behind then no, you don't leave.

In the end if this guy gets a good lawyer, he can beat it. IMO

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 04:29:28 PM »
Quote
In the end if this guy gets a good lawyer, he can beat it. IMO

19 and not exactly the high-rent district. If he did shoot because he was scared or startled (kinda hard to keep a clear head in a situation like that), then I sympathize and wish I could help (no idea who he is).

Some time ago, I did some research on "the right of self defense" and discovered that, under common law, there traditionally wasn't any. At first I was surprised, but after thinking about it, this did not surprise me, and it should not surprise the rest of you. In most feudal countries, the use of force is reserved STRICTLY for the monarch and his/her agents (police, military, etc).

This is why in Asian countries, weapon-less martial arts were invented. The monks had absolutely no other means to defend themselves.

I am aware of cases in some countries of people being executed for killing someone in a fight that seemed to have escalated evenly (what we would call "manslaughter"). Killing in self-defense is not a legal defense in a few countries still. There are also references to accidental killings being punishable by death in one of the stories of the Thousand and One Arabian Nights. And a foreign contractor who shot and killed a (possibly mentally disturbed) Mongolian attacking him while doing some work there found himself arrested under potentially capital charges, although his release was eventually negotiated, probably through the US Consulate.

A limited right to self-defense first showed up in common-law jurisdictions quite late, around the 19th century or so. There was some limited self-defense available under Civil Law since Roman times--a man had some right to defend his house and occupants (not sure of the terms).

I think that historically, the USA has been relatively generous in this regard, because for a long time it was relatively sparsely-populated and lawless. As we have become more crowded, our institutions more entrenched, and as we become increasingly "neofuedalistic", the idea of self-defense is going to come under attack. Defense of property is already a no-no...I am guessing you could get into trouble for tackling a thief.

The problem with the concept of "social contract", is that you can't negotiate the terms! The police don't really come and rescue you from bandits/rapists/killers. More likely they will come cordon off the scene of the crime, fill out the paperwork, and leave the rest to next of kin and the insurance agencies.

We have seen that a lot here. It is practically impossible to get them to do anything for private property crimes unless you're a VIP, and they don't even necessarily come after assaults (depends on who you are), burglaries, arson (especially if someone torches your car, they definitely won't come unless you're a VIP), and similar crimes.

So, in theory, you have abrogated your rights to defend life and property to the police, who refuse to do it.
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opsec

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 04:34:07 PM »
That's one thing I miss about Colorado. They have the "make my day" law out there. Basically anybody that trespasses onto your property is dogmeat and nobody can touch you for it.
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

"Truth is hate to those that hate truth".

AndrewG

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2008, 08:48:43 PM »
That's one thing I miss about Colorado. They have the "make my day" law out there. Basically anybody that trespasses onto your property is dogmeat and nobody can touch you for it.
Or as I call it.... The way it should be everywhere...

opsec

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 02:00:11 PM »
[boot]
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

"Truth is hate to those that hate truth".

Rusty Shackelford

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Re: This young man is in trouble
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2009, 03:02:31 PM »
This must of come through when I had my access problems.

The sad thing is that even if he escapes prosecution, the civil suit can be devastating.  Burn the words I want a lawyer burned into your brain.  IIRC, once you say that the police can be accused of harassment if they continue questioning and evidence obtained as result can be excluded.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.
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