Author Topic: Rookie gun suggestions  (Read 915 times)

hippiechick

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Rookie gun suggestions
« on: June 09, 2010, 06:56:36 AM »
I'm a single mom looking for a little protection. I need something light weight, easy to use, easy to clean( of which I don't know how to do) and low cost, but still able to protect and do the job. Any suggestions from you weapons experts out there? I took one of those gun safety courses so I know just enough, but not much. I went to the gun store and was overwhelmed.
How much better is it to get wisdom than gold. Proverbs 16:16

Beeherder

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2010, 08:47:03 AM »

28" Louisville Slugger, easy to clean, no training, keep one near the entry door but out of sight.

Not sure if they have such things in your area but "gun shows" are another way to be overwhelmed by all the choices. The main difference is the "trade show" atmosphere of the gun shows. There will be many many things there which you will have absolutely no interest in but there should be more information about local ranges and training opportunities as well as the weapons and accessories. Whenever i think it might be time to acquire a gun related item it is always enlightening to just walk around and touch them, hold them in your hand, talk to people on both sides of the tables (vendors & buyers) mostly they will understand and want to help you find the right solution.

most of personal security is mental or to paraphrase a Yogi Berra - "90% of the game is half mental"

having a gun and not being fully competent in its safe use is almost as bad as not having the gun. If the gun safety course you took included range time then you might just ask the instructor or range operators about your options. I am a big believer in face to face advice when it comes to guns but here goes anyway:

Home protection can be very different than concealed carry. Training and experience are your best options, start with small caliber like .22 pistol or rifle, learn to shoot it competently and safely and then you will be in position to make informed choices about what additional weapons you may want to acquire. Its just like any other physical sport, it takes time to learn how. Can't think of anyone i know who didn't start with a .22 or even a .17 air gun. Hey they are all guns, and can be used very effectively to teach safety and sight picture and breathing and ... Start small, develop skill, make informed choices. And remember the first time you tried to learn any new skill? this is no different, join a club maybe, or even just take more training. Ask your armed friends where they shoot and if you can come along the next time they go to the range. Some gun stores will have indoor ranges suitable for shooting small calibers like .22 and may let you shoot some before you buy. Use the phone call a few of them explain your novice interest in shooting sports and self defense, most of them will just love talking to you.

enjoy

silverseeds

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 09:51:30 AM »
First I should say, Im no gun expert. But that might be a good source of advice for a first time buyer really.

I have a semi auto 9mm. It broke after 100 rounds or so. My wife never could learn how to use it, or clean it well. It confused her. So to replace it I bought a revolver, and that is my suggestion. a revolver is easy to use, easy to clean, easy to understand.

So Im guessing this is for mainly self defense? Id get a .357 revolver, which will also be able to use .38 special rounds, which are easier to handle. Mine has a 6.5 inch barrel, and it is easy to use. a friend has one with a 3 inch barrel and I think many women wouldnt feel comfortable using it.

You might also consider a .22lr bolt action. this would be good for small game hunting.....

Wellspring

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 09:53:22 AM »
just a side note to Beeherder mention of the .177 air gun.  I regularly use a .177 air gun with scope in my garden to fend off the squirrels as well as a Walther CP99 CO2 .177 pistol.  The CP99 has a very realistic look & feel! Almost exact copy of firearm brother (P99).  In fact, it's a back-up defensive weapon as it looks just like the P99.  It's a semi-auto with an 8-shot rotary clip.  Great backyard practice gun.

btw, my wife is very comfortable with a snub nose 38 special.  it's the small frame "body guard" from S&W.  great for "up close and personal."  And that's the key. IMO, whatever handheld gun you use, the closer you get to your target, the better your odds.  The snub nose is small enough to be easily concealed in your hand if you happen to be walking up to or around a possible threat.  Every potential threat is situational and requires different tactics.  If your threat doesn't have a gun aimed at you, it's better to get into your Oscar-winning role of acting naive, innocent as you get closer.  Assessing the risk is pretty challenging if fear is present.  I don't believe in pulling out your weapon as a means of deterring an attack.  If you pull your weapon, you're going to use it.  That's my strategy.  Of course, you may not have to, but the idea is to embody the Dirty Harry ATTITUDE!  And if that doesn't come naturally, it's not that easy to cultivate.  Ahhh, I'm rambling.  And I'm mostly thinking of home invasion as I ramble.  Again and again, there are so many different situations to think about when considering the use of a firearm.  That said, there are many others on the board who are very grounded in firearm use and will enlighten us on the subject.

I highly recommend you veer over to:   http://www.notpurfect.com/main/snub.html

It gives great insight into the Snub Nose and how it compares to automatics.  There are also some good "compact" full-size automatics to consider as well.

The facts

All myths aside, the venerable snub nose is a pretty demanding weapon. The small size, full powered cartridge, short barrel and light weight conspire to make the diminutive little beasts a real handful to shoot. The short barrel decreases muzzle velocity, making the little guns  somewhat less effective than their longer barreled brethren. The shorter sighting radius makes them more difficult to aim, and increases the muzzle flash. Their lighter weight significantly  increases felt recoil. However, these pint sized revolvers do have two very important things in their favor, which explains their popularity; they are easy to conceal, and they look neat. 
    From a practical point of view, the snub nose is the most powerful gun on the market, for it's size. This is particularly true, if you discard tradition, and get yourself a 357 model or one of the medium frame 44 models, instead of a classic 38. The 38 is somewhat superior to the 9 mm, and the 44 Special is just below the 45 automatic. Though the snub nose revolver lacks the firepower of these guns, being limited to six, or even five rounds, it fires a full powered cartridge in the smallest possible form factor. Shown in the photograph to the right, is my current collection of traditional snub nose revolvers. These are the small frame Body guard from S&W with the shrouded hammer, the medium frame Colt Detective Special, and the slightly larger Dan Wesson medium frame.
      When considered in the context of it's intended role, the snub nose revolver is not as handicapped by it's lack of firepower, and it's other deficiencies, as might seem to be the case. Most defensive encounters with handguns take place at very close range, twenty feet or less. They also tend to happen quite quickly, in a matter of a few seconds. Few rounds are fired, and it is rare for the participants to have to reload their guns, which is just as well for the snub nose revolver owner, since the shortened ejector rod does not have a long enough stroke to completely clear the empties from the chambers. In such situations, it is generally the first round or two that decide the matter. With it's lack of safeties to take off, hammers to cock, or slides to pull back, the revolver is often the quickest gun to bring into action. More important still, the revolver is able to accept and reliably feed any style of ammunition. A 38 snub nose can be loaded with +P rounds using one of the new frangible style bullets. Some of the more drastically shaped bullet styles do not always feed reliably in semi automatics. A revolver is a very simple, direct, and reliable device. Revolvers do not jam, fail to feed, or become useless after a misfire. Unless the shooter dedicates considerable time to training, and weapon familiarization, a revolver will always be faster to bring into action than a semi automatic. Even with practice, the semi automatic will still be inferior to the revolver in the areas of safety and reliability. The only place in which the automatic shows a clear superiority over the revolver is in the area of magazine capacity, and ease of reloading. These are significant advantages for the combat shooter, but are not necessarily important for the casually armed defensive shooter.
      Though their cylinders can be bulky, this problem is often overstated and revolvers can be made very small indeed. Interestingly, both the revolver, and the auto are thickest in the place the ammunition is kept. No semi auto firing a full powered cartridge can be made as short as a snub nose revolver. The small frame models, like the J frame Smith and Wesson, use five shot cylinders which make the cylinders on these little guns almost as thin as the frame of a medium framed automatic. Other than in the cylinder area, revolvers are very thin, when compared to automatics, and their curves can sometimes make concealment easier than the angular dimensions, and boxy shapes of many automatics.
    Short barreled guns do present special problems, whether revolver or automatic. The most apparent is the difficulty in accurately aiming a gun with such a small sight radius. Most shooters have a hard time getting better than 3 inch groups with a snub nose, and five inch groups are probably more common. Another impairment is the almost universal installation of fixed sights on snub nose revolvers. Though there are some models with adjustable units, these tend to snag on the users clothing, and are generally too delicate for the hard lives these little guns often lead. Cures for these problems are practice, and finding a load that shoots just about right with your particular gun. Fixed sights can be filed down or bent a bit more in line with the way the gun is shooting.
      Another problem with all small guns, is the difficulty most shooters have in controlling them. A small gun kicks harder than a larger gun, because there is less weight in the frame to provide inertia against the force of the cartridge. This can make the shooter flinch, further degrading accuracy. Related to this is a significant increase in muzzle flash. Muzzle flash is caused by powder continuing to burn after the bullet has left the barrel. Not only is it distracting to the shooter, but it also indicates inefficiency, because powder which burns after the bullet has exited the firearm does not add to the energy of the round. There are two ways to reduce or eliminate muzzle flash. The first is to go with a longer barrel, which gives the powder time to burn completely before the bullet exits the muzzle. The second is to go with a faster burning powder, such as Bullseye. The use of fast burning powders is really the only option for the snub nose. The problem is magnified by the use of magnum rounds in snub nose revolvers. Magnums depend upon slow burning powders and long barrels to get their high velocities. A two inch barrel which somewhat reduces the power of a 38 Special, will drastically reduce the power of a 357 Magnum. At the same time, the 357 will produce greatly more muzzle flash and recoil, and be very difficult to control. Though the magnum round, even out of a short barrel, will have more energy than the 38, I do not consider this slight increase to be worth the extra difficulty in shooting such a gun. Because 357, and 38 snub nose guns are generally built on the same frames, the use of a magnum round also subjects the gun to considerably more wear.
    Shown in the photos above are some side by side comparisons of a S&W J frame snub nose, in this case a model 649, and one of  the new series of very compact full size automatics, as described below. Note how much more compact and concealable the snub nose is, despite it's bulky cylinder.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 10:20:53 AM by Wellspring »
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opsec

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 11:28:51 AM »
You need to go to a range and rent several pistols and shoot them to find out what is going to suit you best. As you shoot each gun, put the target out at about 10 feet in front of you as that is a common range for such confrontations to occur. When you aim the gun use the sights at first, but then after a few shots, try to avoid using the sights at all, rather just use the muzzle to point to where you want the bullet to go as if it's your finger and then squeeze the trigger as you're pointing. That's called instinctive shooting which is all you have time for in a confrontation at close range. Whichever gun does best at putting the bullets where you want them to go is your gun. It's like getting a dog from the pound, whichever one works best for you is the one you take home.

I recommend a semi automatic over a revolver, and a caliber of at least .380 or greater. Going in order of power, the options are: .380, 9mm, .38/.357, .40, .45, 10mm, .41, and .44. I am a big fan of simplicity when under fire. I don't like a pistol with a lot of levers and buttons. I go with Glock because it's a simple pull/point/shoot weapon. The safet mechanisms are all build in and there are not external levers or buttons to fiddle around with before you shoot.

I attend gun courses where there are 50-something aged women who shoot 9mm with no problem. These are tiny women too, when I first saw them I thought somebody had brought their children with them to class. I doubt you would have any problem with a 9mm. If you find that easy, then you should try out a .40 caliber. I don't know what your hands are like, but if you find a pistol that works for you, but the handle is too large to hold securely, you can take it to a gunsmith and have them sand it down for you so it is a bit smaller around.

Cleaning Glocks is easy too. It breaks down into 4 basic pieces which you can then spray out with carburetor cleaner and then lubricate. The barrel takes the usual cleaning brushes and chemicals, but that's nothing complicated. There are better ways to clean a weapon, but in a pinch, the above will keep the weapon at least functional.

Keep two different kinds of ammo. For inside the house, load Glasser Safety Slugs. Those won't penetrate interior walls but will penetrate the person you are aiming at. Keep two magazines loaded with those and keep them on your bedside table. When you leave to go anywhere outside the home, change magazines and carry Gold Dot hollow point rounds instead.

You will need a good concealed carry holster. Uncle Mike's makes a variety of inside-the-waistband holsters that are suitable and cheap.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 11:41:16 AM by opsec »
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hippiechick

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 07:56:44 PM »
thanks for the great info....you guys really know your stuff...I'm a little confused by it, but have a better understanding. I think I fear guns at this point and need to more comfortable like you all said. Maybe I will go hold some and make my decision. I should be very comfortable with my gun before an opportunity arises in which I feel the need to use it otherwise I might create even more problems for myself. Thanks for the info.
How much better is it to get wisdom than gold. Proverbs 16:16

darkdwarf

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 08:45:04 PM »
Hippiechick, I am going make you ask yourself a few questions. You see a firearm is a tool, and like any tool they serve specialized functions. You wouldn't use a scapel to aputate a leg--I hope. Do you want the weapon for home defense, only? Do you want a weapon you can take with you in public? If you want it for home defence where will you keep it? For example, if you decide on a pistol are you goint to wear it in public and take it off when you get home and lock it up beause you have children? What good will that pistol do you locked in a gun safe in your bed room when the criminal enters the house through your bedroom window, while the family is eating dinner? If you get a pistol and the corresponding carry permit keep the weapon on even at home. This is not a decision to rush into, so as others have said, start with air guns. One thing I love, despite some peoples joking, it to start with an airsoft weapon. I find this works well especially with women and children that fear the weapon in the begining. Learn the basics of shooting. The better airsoft weapons are near duplicates of the "real" weapons they are based on. The gives you the feel and with training--the technique--without the danger;without the fear. Then move to a regular pellet gun. Then to a .22 calibre if you decide a pistol is your tool of choice, or a 410 shotgun if that is you preference. You can get a New England Firearms single shot shotgun with multiple guage barrles for arround $150 or less. As you improve with the smaller you can graduate up to the 20 or 12 guage. For women (and men to be honest) I recommend the 20 guage for home defence. If you think about your home, what is the longest straight line (range to shoot) in your house? I bet it is less than 12 yards. A 20 guage is easier and faster to work and the power at these short ranges is nearly identical. Ask any shooter if they would like to be shot with 00 buck shot at 10 yards from a 20 guage. As you have children get them training too. children are more likely to want to play with a "dangerous" toy they know nothing about than one they get to use from time to time (age dependant of course!).  Take you time with this one. you will be more dangerous to yourself and loved ones if you are unhappy and unfamiliar with a weapon you buy uneducated about. (sorry bad grammar)And remember this: training, training, training, training, and more training = safe.
Remembering the Marines who now guard the streets of heaven--Semper Fi

wander

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 09:26:34 PM »
I can't agree more with darkdwarf.

Home defense - shotgun. 20 gauge will kill just as dead as a 12 gauge, the ammo is cheaper, the guns are lighter, and slightly easier to use. Nothing makes a burglar **** his pants like the sound of a shotgun being cocked. Nothing.

If you insist on a handgun for home defense, I would say a .357 is ideal only because you can practice using .38 rounds so you have very low recoil but you still gain proficiency and expertise.

However, any gun is better than no gun.

Keep in mind, when you are using a gun in defense, as long as you are trained and proficient, the hard hitting rounds won't make one difference to you the shooter, because adrenaline and fear will counteract it.

There is no such thing as too much firearm training!! Everyone in the house should be trained and proficient, otherwise you risk getting accidentally shot by a family member. I've never seen someone shot on accident by someone who is trained and proficient with the weapon they used. And I have seen many accidental shootings.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -Mahatma Gandhi.

hippiechick

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2010, 07:02:28 AM »
I live in a small town in Ohio. Recently there was a single mom murdered in our county . I think the kids called 911. Due to budget cuts only ONE WOMAN was on duty and she was dispatcher and had to call in someone before she could even leave the station. So much for police protection!! I now realize its up to me to protect myself and my child.  As the economy gets worse we will have less protection and more crimes that is scarey.
OK lets suppose I hear an intruder, make the 911 call...(in hopes they might have someone on duty) get the gun out....now what??? Nobody tells you these things. Run downstairs screaming "get out of my house or I'll shoot you?" What is the proper way to handle myself?  I'd appreciate some suggestions.
How much better is it to get wisdom than gold. Proverbs 16:16

Beeherder

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2010, 08:15:55 AM »
Protecting yourself and your loved ones is not about punishing others.

Never having faced an actual home invasion i can only offer anecdotal evidence that is second hand. The monthly mag from NRA has a column about folks using firearms for self defense one of my favorite stories is about the Mom who had a visitor in the front of the house and went to the back of the house and on return discovered that an armed invader was robbing her guest. She quietly retreated, grabbed her young daughter and gun, and isolated herself in a closet, called 911. When the bad guy opened the closed all he saw was the barrel of the gun in his face, he turned and ran. No shots were fired the culprit was apprehended by police.

The only way i know of to acquire the confidence and skills you desire is through training from competent professionals. There are no shortcuts. It is a physical skill like skiing or baseball, requires physical skill and mental skill. A good trainer will teach you how to deal with home invasion confrontations but it won't be until about the 50th hour of training (maybe less, more likely more) that you will begin to develop proficiency. Unless you are a natural athlete, you will need time to develop muscle memory and physical skill. I would have shot the s.o.b. but hey i probably wouldn't live in that neighborhood either.

Not being willing to become a victim is the first step. Even without guns there are many many ways to defend yourself, literally everything can be a weapon. Attitude is everything, no need to be aggressive and go charging at the bad guys. When it is necessary to use force, use overwhelming force. My gun trainer (a police chief at the time) taught us the following mantra. I suggest you memorize it, so well that if you wake from a deep sleep this is the first thing that comes to mind.

"Officer I felt my life was threatened. I fired until the threat went away. I'd like to speak to my lawyer now." Then shut up!

chance favors the prepared mind

NRA Basic Pistol Course - 4 hours classroom, 8 hours range time - 200 to 300 rounds fired
Basic Self Defense Pistol - 4 different days at the range, 4 hours or more - 300 - 500 rounds fired
Small Bore Rifle - join a club shoot every week for a year. The local club here provides coaches of Olympic Quality so this is not just for little children though most shooters are very young, 12 - 16 y.o.
The local club also has once a month pistol competitions, skeet range, 200 yard rifle range - I like to shoot at least once a month, more if time allows and every time i like to start with the .22 with focus on some specific skill refinement, like sight picture, breathing, trigger pull, from bench, from prone, from freestanding.
Advanced Pistol - usually for LE ( i was only civilian) - two range days 8 hours each - 500 rounds fired
Shoot Don't Shoot - situation training, and you can NOT start here you must develop safety, skill and experience first.

This stuff is actually lots of fun, especially if you get the kids involved in sport shooting at appropriate ages. You will get to meet lots of gun friendly parents, most of whom will be very glad to help you develop those skills. Be kind to yourself, you can not through a 100 mph strike the first time you pick up a baseball, this is no different. Have some fun, meet some other responsible parents.


Enjoy

hippiechick

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2010, 09:29:13 AM »
Thanks for the great advice
How much better is it to get wisdom than gold. Proverbs 16:16

opsec

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2010, 12:08:36 PM »
Engrave the following statement onto your brain, have it tattooed onto the back of your eyelids so you see it every time you blink, this is gun gospel: If you ever shoot somebody, there is one thing and one thing only that you will say to the police when they show up. It is: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer".

   Example:

   Officer: "It's obvious that you were acting in self defense, just tell me how it happened so I can fill out the report."
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "I need to get a statement from everybody including you, so tell me what happened."
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "Look, you have enough legal trouble as it is, now quit fucking with me and tell me what happened!"  (accompanied by emphatic gestures intended to establish domination over you)
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "Hey dumbass, if you don't tell the police what happened, the jury will see that as an admission of guilt and the judge is going to give you the maximum sentence."
   You: "I was in fear of gross bodily harm, I want to talk to my lawyer."

   Officer: "Ok, but don't say I didn't warn you."
   You: (exercising your right to remain silent) Contrary to what the police will tell you, you do not need to be under arrest in order to exercise your right to remain silent, and if they get mad and hit you, that's the same thing as winning the lottery. If that happens, remain silent, smile glibly, and just let them see the dollar signs in your eyes.

You will be a broken record until your lawyer is present with you in the interrogation room.

Second item: You must be among the first people to call the police. If you don't summon the police, juries see that as an attempt by you to conceal your activity. That leads them in the wrong direction even if all the facts of the case are in your favor. All you tell the 911 operator is that there has been a shooting and you need the police and an ambulance at your address.

Third item: Don't do any kind of after action clean up to make yourself look even more innocent than you already are. The popular urban myth that you should drag the body back inside your house is wrong. Any attempt by you to change the scene will automatically incriminate you in the eyes of the law (prosecutor: "If you're innocent, then why did you drag the body back inside your house?", "Did you plant the [insert weapon here] in his dead hand too?") so don't give the prosecutor any ammunition to use against you in court.

Do the research now and find an attorney(s), and have the list in a place that your spouse, trusted friend, or somebody you can count on, can find it and start calling around for you after you call them. That's what the one phone call is for. You don't call the lawyer and leave a message on his answering machine for him to listen to after he gets back from his Carribean cruise. Call the spouse/friend and set them into motion on your behalf. You can then relax in your holding cell instead of stressing out, wondering what you are going to do, or what the judge is going to do to you. Gun Owners of America has a website. They will help you find a lawyer that is pro-second ammendment.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 12:10:21 PM by opsec »
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silverseeds

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2010, 02:42:51 PM »
Another question for those who know more about guns then myself...... 

I highly prefer revolvers after a bad experience with a semi auto. I do know the arguments on both sides of that debate, and I still choose the revolver. I trust them. Which is important with such a thing.

so anyway, what do you all think of the Taurus judge? It shoots both .45 rounds, and .410 shotgun shells. If I get another gun it will likely be one of these, or one of those .22lr "survival" rifles that fold down into the stock, and are water proof.

opsec

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2010, 03:19:53 PM »
I've never been impressed with the .410 shotgun myself. If I had to get a revolver, I would get a Ruger. The top strap on those is almost twice as thick as it is on a S&W. Much more robust construction means you can use hot hand loads.

As far as the .22lr rifles is concerned, I have had an AR-7 and although it does float, that's about it's best feature. It jambed constantly. I much prefer the Marlin Model 77PSS (aka the Marlin Papoose). It is stainless steel, and breaks down like the AR-7. It does not collapes into it's own stock or float however it is much more accurate. I consistently get 1/2" groups at 25 yards with it using an after market rear aperture sight. If you get one, try to get your hands on the CCI subsonic .22lr rounds. I get my best accuracy out of those and they will take small game at the range that one normally expects to take small game at. Don't forget to buy some repair parts for the Papoose. I bent the main spring while reassembling mine and immediately went and bought three spares. Same for the few small parts that a common user could lose. Several of the little "C" clips and a couple spares of the rubber recoil bumpers. All told I spent about $50 on a repair kit that I expect to last me the rest of my life. Imagine what would have happened if I had bent that spring after TSHTF. A major piece of survival gear gets taken off line for want of a $5.00 part potentially costing me my life.
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

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silverseeds

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Re: Rookie gun suggestions
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2010, 04:09:42 PM »
yeah my revolver is a ruger blackhawk. It is certainly a hefty gun. I think it could double as a hammer. not that I would do that. It also has a second cylinder and can accommodate 9m rounds as well. and I tell you, if you know anyone who demands a revolver, but cannot handle large loads. this might be a good choice. A trained five year old could handle this gun with 9mm rounds. It has less kick then my .22lr revolver.

for a .22lr rifle I have a ruger 77/22 which is a bolt action. should last me a good long time. I have no idea what parts Id be wise to get replacements for......

 

anything