Author Topic: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources  (Read 719 times)

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8756
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008082735_heatingoil31m.html

An ideal situation is when you have a dual-energy-source heating system that you can switch according to whatever is cheapest at the moment. But the redundant infrastructure is its own cost.

We fire up the central heating around late afternoon in the winter, because that's about the the time that most of us are actually home and are particularly active. Then it goes off after a few hours, because it will last for a while and most people prefer to sleep cool anyway. You can always pile the blankets on if needed.

I use space heaters for heating individual rooms that are in use, rather than the whole house, at other times. Space heaters are, of course, a fire hazard, so please be careful. They always go off when the room is empty, always.

We'll probably spring for some attic insulation before winter hits. I think it would be worth it. Our old house is essentially uninsulated, except for the double-paned windows. We like double-paned windows because it reduced condensation on the windows, and cuts down noise as well as heat loss.
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

opsec

  • Ultraviolet team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4939
  • Expect the worst, don't just prepare for it.
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 11:30:45 PM »
This radiant hear barrier may be useful too: http://atticfoil.com/
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

"Truth is hate to those that hate truth".

Mike

  • Ultraviolet team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1937
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2008, 08:49:41 AM »
I am a former Slum Lord with lots of experience with old houses and old wiring and renters who had their natural gas shut off; or renters who prefer portable space heaters for primary heat just because they want one bill.

The main danger with portable space heaters isn't so much that they will malfunction and catch on fire, or be buried in a bunch of papers, but there affect on wiring in the walls.

Like any metal, copper oxidizes.  Over time bright shiny copper turns dull, then either black or green.  Along with the oxidation comes poor conduction at the connections.  Poor conduction results in heat, which results in poorer conduction, which result in even more heat and oxidation.  The plastic insulation may melt and the wires may spread, permitting arching.  This problem will always be at the connections.  So, because most outlets are wired in series, the connection that catches on fire could be anywhere in the house (but on the same circuit as the space heater).

Last winter my sister in law had several outlets and a light not working.  Yes, she is a believer in portable heaters.  I spent a day taking apart outlets and found several with poor connections with some melting of the plastic insulation.  I got the problem solved.  Or so I thought. 

This summer I noticed the same light would sometimes flicker.  So I went around the house banging my fist on the outlets until I caused a flicker.  Thusly I identified one more connection on that same circuit that had been damaged by a portable space heater.

In modern homes with modern wiring there are dedicated circuits for high wattage appliances like toasters and micro-waves.  IMO space heaters are good if one can put them on a dedicated circuit that does not have serial connections en route to the space heater.


Dame

  • Red team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2261
  • Good luck; bad luck; who knows?
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 03:27:06 PM »
Wow, wonderfully clear explaination; this post doubles as marriage counciling at our house. 

I run around the house with space heaters so I am comfortable in diferent locations for various activities.  My husband follows behind telling me I need to relocate the activity to somewhere the space heater will be safer.
Much friction over competing priorities is at times the result.

mjk33663

  • Active
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 04:07:11 PM »
I am i the middle of Nebraska. It get's a bit cold here on occasion. For the last few months I have kept myself busy doing the tenant finish on a hardware store for my sister. She sells this heater called a SunHeat. She swears by it. Last night we hooked a meter to it and found that it burned 11 cents per hour in juice and I had to get up and shut it off because I was hot.  I was there because my old ladywas irritating me as always so I went to my sisters to get some sleep. My observations for the day

opsec

  • Ultraviolet team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4939
  • Expect the worst, don't just prepare for it.
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 06:44:24 PM »
That's a little over $60.00 per month to heat a single room. That seems like a lot.
"The difference between a pessimist and an optimist is that the pessimist usually has more information"

"Where law ends tyranny begins. Where law begins, tyranny becomes legal"

"Truth is hate to those that hate truth".

offdalip

  • Blue team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 07:38:12 PM »
Quote
That's a little over $60.00 per month to heat a single room. That seems like a lot.

0.11 X 24hr X 30days = $79.2 , yes it does seem alot for 24/7 use for a single room , but I would only use it for maybe 6-8 hrs in the evening ( if I lived up in Seattle/Portland area like the
rest of my family does ).

anyways, my problem isn't the heater, I never ever run the heater. Even when it gets down to 44f or below like the last few weeks or so.

still, our total AC in the dead of summer isn't ever over $90/mo. for the entire central air system, right now it's zilch.

I guess if you lived up that far north , the important thing is to find some SUSTAINABLE way to heat certain rooms only, that are well insulated.

I will personally also have to find a way to cool certain rooms only during june-october in an energy sustainable manner
_______________________________________
"Events can move from the impossible to the inevitable without ever stopping at the probable"

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse...."

Brosia

  • Active
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2008, 07:06:18 PM »
My family is furious with me right now, because I won't let them have heat!!

Okay, I let them have a little.  The thermostat is set at 62. I won't let it go higher.  Our heating bill (gas heat) is usually $250+ for winter months, I can't do that anymore! And my house is TINY, and well insulated, since we did some upgrading a few years ago. I put an extra blanket on every bed (free, we already had them), they can put on a sweater or a bathrobe around the house during the day (free, we already had them).  At 10 minutes into showers I am POUNDING on the door to make them get out (I mean, really, how dirty can they be?)  I use cold water in the washing machine.

I think the gas company is a bunch of crooks anyway- the meter guy came this summer and remarked, "wow, you've barely used anything"  and the bill came in at over $150!! 

Our house has good wiring, recently updated (my brother is an electrician) I've changed all the lightbulbs to energy saving, long lasting flourescent (they were cheap, about 99 cents per bulb). I've just started keeping appliances unplugged until needed.  I can't do anything just yet about my energy guzzling refrigerator, but next spring I plan on hanging clothes out on a line instead of using the dryer (it's getting too cold for me now). My electric bill was running about $200 a month.  Yes, we have a pool, but I only ran the filter a few hours a day, and that was only for June-early September. 

Conserve, conserve, conserve, that's my middle name these days.

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8756
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2008, 07:52:37 PM »
Brosia, you're doing the right thing. The problem is to get other family members with the program.

Right now, what you are doing is VOLUNTARY. What I hate, is when circumstances start FORCING their hand on you. Better to get used to such things while you still have some leeway, than when you don't.

I'm doing the same thing, but even more so. I only turn on the heat, to 62F, when enough people are home to justify it. Believe it or not, 62F used to to be considered "room temperature" in many "maritime" climates like mine (or in the UK). That was within my memory...but long ago they didn't bother to actually heat homes in old Europe, except for a fireplace for cooking and a bit of heat. And it was not kept going except as needed for cooking. There was a firewood shortage in Europe by at least the 17th century or so, so until coal got into common use in the 18th and 19th centuries, Europe was COLD.

Hence old drawings and paintings of people wearing substantial coats indoors.

What I am doing anymore, is finding lightweight sweaters and jackets I don't mind wearing indoors, along with comfy slipper-socks, and for later in the evening, warm fuzzy "lounge pants" (basically really thick jammies).

My home is NOT insulated--they didn't bother in this part of the world until relatively recently (and my home is from the 1950s). We did get double-paned windows, but now I'm trying to spring for attic insulation, when our handyman finally comes to call.

With as many family members as I have, and some cooking, it stays pretty tolerable indoors except on really cold days, and would be even nicer if the attic were insulated. My house is low-to-the-ground, with a lot of the rooms in the finished basement, so insulating the attic should help a lot.

Showers are hard...especially with teenagers...
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

Dame

  • Red team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2261
  • Good luck; bad luck; who knows?
    • View Profile
Re: I think your best bet is conservation, not switching energy sources
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 11:04:56 PM »
We moved to the farm under health emergency conditions.  It involved moving into a very old and poorly maintained farmhouse.  I needed the no modern materials, no glue, etc etc. The first winter cost us $400 per month in heat with forced air heat.  I was sufficiently underweight that no amount of clothing would offset the low temperatures.

We hooked up the old cookstove I had kept as a keepsake of my grandmother (she had refused to give it up)
We discovered that turning off the forced air made the same low temperature much more tolerable.  We also discovered that a very small space overheated for even a short piriod of time and the dehumidifying effect of wood burning left me way more comfortable most of the time. 

Since then we have eliminated forced air and use radiant heat only, mostly electric.  I look forward to getting my clothes back on the clothesline in the spring.  I wash in very hot water because I use minimal detergent and no bleach (both cause negative phisical reactions).  We have good windows (restored 6 over 6) and put shutters on the windows in the 3 season rooms, and really good weather stripping on all the doors and windows.  We now manage all heat, hot water, electrical needs for a working farm (green house, chicken brooder, shop, block heaters on at least one vehicle etc) for less than $350 per month.  That is domestic useage of approx 150 to 200 per month.  I think we will reduce it even more this winter as we have moved the bathroom into the core of the house and are turning the old bathroom into an unheated porch (add a door).  We do not shower, because we cannot recycle the heat.  We use a hand held shower in a salvaged fourlegged cast iron tub and leave the water in the tub (which acts as a radiator) until it has cooled off.

Oh,  the moved bathroom was made possible when we dicovered we could do all the rough in and discharge, including the toilet with snap together 3/4" plastic hose (new technology) and did all the work ourselves in 2 to 3 days total work time.  We also got a composting toilet just in case the grid goes down, a luxury item pandering to my aversion to the outhouse in the winter.